Donald Trump’s threats to carry out mass bombing of civilian infrastructure in Iran present US military officers with a dilemma: disobey orders or help commit war crimes.
It is an urgent matter for the US chain of command. In an expletive-laden threat, Trump set a Tuesday 8pm Washington time deadline for the Iranian government to open the strait of Hormuz or face “Power Plant Day, and Bridge Day, all wrapped up in one”.
There is little debate among legal experts that such an attack on the life-supporting infrastructure for 93 million Iranians would constitute a war crime.
“Such rhetorical statements – if followed through – would amount to the most serious war crimes – and thus the president’s statements place service members in a profoundly challenging situation,” two former judge advocate general (JAG) officers, Margaret Donovan and Rachel VanLandingham wrote on the website Just Security on Monday.
“As former uniformed military lawyers who advised targeting operations, we know the president’s words run counter to decades of legal training of military personnel and risk placing our warfighters on a path of no return.”
Its not a hard choice, don’t commit war crimes
I’m not saying it’s easy, but it is simple. Disobey illegal orders.
Exactly. It’s not an “urgent matter for the chain of command”, it’s a settled matter of policy predicated on the unlawful murder of millions.
Agreed. I regret that the consequences for doing the right thing could be very high, but doesn’t it just seem like case in so many instances? What a backwards species humans are. No consequences for the guy causing all of the problems but how dare you do the right thing to everyone who rightfully objects.
No one wants to be excluded from the group, that’s our nature. It means immediate end of career and likely a bunch of hate speech and death threats to the first officer who openly says “no, I refuse that order,” so I can understand why no one has done it….but it’s also the WHOLE FUCKING OATH so I can’t believe no one has done it. More will follow unless we let this purge continue quietly
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That’s not a “dilemma.” You don’t commit war crimes. You absolutely have the right and the duty to refuse illegal orders
I genuinely didn’t expect that level of “both sides”-ism from The Guardian.
They know the rules, and several elected officials reminded them in video messages that were very controversial.
They are walking into this with their eyes wide open, knowing the entire world is watching. If they accept those orders, and carry them out, they know it will not be forgotten, they will be punished for it eventually. They deserve no mercy if they follow that path.
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Been a long time since then. It ain’t that they forgot, it’s that they think it shouldn’t be their problem
Operation Paperclip showed them that there can be exceptions written into literally any rule including mass murder, so of course they all assume they’ll be pardoned.
The orange cancer won’t be here forever. You commit war crimes, you will find yourself on a very unpleasant trial.
Grow some fucking spines. You commit these war crimes on the demand of a pedophile rapist felon, then you deserve the same fate. You will be a disgrace, a pariah.
aren’t they illegal orders?
the kind of orders where following them would be committing war crimes
Pedophile orders you to commit war crimes for which you know you eventually WILL be judged…
Mmmmm, that IS a tough one…
Thanks you fucking maga idiots. We all told you what was up and you ignored us.
They also ignored all their teachers.
That’s how they became MAGAts.
Everyone with a functioning brain-cell knows that Trump is going to throw kegsbreath under the bus to save himself, and I for one can’t wait to see his smug slick backed face hung for war crimes.
Hanged. Ain’t no way this textbook case of overcompensating masculine fragility is hung, lbr.
I bet all those big macho MAGAs are breaking down the doors at the recruiting office, riiiight?
placing our warfighters on a path of no return
Can we go back to calling them soldiers?
You can call them service members, implying they are selflessly performing some vital service for us! You must spread the propaganda through deliberate misuse of language!
Protecting our freedom! From, uh, who is at this time, Iran? That doesn’t sound right. Well, usa, usa, usa! Big /S
See the thing is is that you should be afraid of the consequences when you lose. Following illegal orders = war crimes.
SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY FUCKIN’ EASY DECISION.
Based on how the US military has behaved throughout both recent and more distant history, yeah, the answer’s obvious.
They’re going to obey.
They’re not just going to obey, they’ll make videos of it to pass it around as trophies and their citizens will wave it off like it’s normal occurrence.
To be fair many will become disillusioned and realize the error of their ways and join us in time on some issues, at which point most of you will reject them for not being pure enough, where they will be soaked up by cynical motherfuckers on the right wing, and we will continue to lose. Sweet dreams.
If they participated in any of these events and it took them years to figure out that it was wrong then I highly doubt they’d vote for anything other than MAGA anyway
Ah yes, only the pure can cooperate on what we agree on. And Israel and the US government is whispering in your ear about who is pure or not aren’t they? They are. Wake the fuck up.
Have you actually read into some of the shit Americans have done? I wouldn’t even want to fucking cooperate with anyone who took part in the My Lai massacre or anything else like that.
To copy/paste from Wikipedia:
The Mỹ Lai Massacre […] was a United States war crime committed on 16 March 1968, involving the mass murder of unarmed civilians in Sơn Mỹ village, Quảng Ngãi province, South Vietnam, during the Vietnam War. At least 347 and up to 504 civilians, almost all women, children and elderly men, were murdered by U.S. Army soldiers. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, and some soldiers mutilated and raped children as young as 12.
(emphasis mine)
edit: oh and the most justice that came of that was that one person got house arrest for three years
Oh, and all citizens are guilty of their government’s crimes? I seem to recall some shit about Canada by the way. Not so polite eh?
Make crime or make no crime.
Is it allowed to be a serious question for the rest of us as well? Or is it just the fucking Military that has the Option to ditch the Law?
Maga only if we let them.
The law is just a bunch of words, it can’t make you do anything or prevent you from doing anything. Follow it or don’t your call
Is it? If you follow orders you will most likely not be punished in any way. If you don’t then you definitely will.
I mean, it’s easy for you to tell others to take that risk I guess, maybe that’s what you meant.
Yes agency - what an awful thing to have. Better be a mindless drone and just coast through life being someone’s bitch huh
I’m not directing this at you btw. Just this mentality of “oh I have no choice but to submit” is what got us in ww3 to begin with.
Its what let the Holocaust happen too
We could have a very long Nuanced discussion about what led us to this place, I’m not entirely sure your factor is the overriding one either, although it is a factor.
It’s not about agency it’s about a very real risk. You will be court-martialed for disobeying an order. Period.
You will then need to fight a lengthy and public legal battle against the US government to prove that your disobeying was legal. And the result is very much not guaranteed.
That is a significant risk to ask of a soldier and should not be underestimated. I hear your armchair “well they should be brave” whining but this is reality.
And even if you won that Court battle, politicians including the president might call you out by name, they absolutely would call you out by name, and make you a hated figure and a target across the entire country. Not just for the maga diehards, but for all of those conniving police and prosecutors looking to curry favor with the administration.
Don’t you make the choice to risk your life for your country already by joining the military? Sounds like this is that risk for them. Risk stepping on an IED killing children or getting a court martial for not killing children is a risk either way, but one is infinitely better than the other.
Sure but it’s only reality because everyone’s too pussy to take responsibility thus the framework is not protecting agency. So it becomes and endless circle of no one’s taking responsibility out of fear thus no one’s agency is being protected.
The answer here has been clear since ancient Greek philosophers - virtue. As a soldier, or any professional for that matter, you have to rule your position through virtue not fear. This is the only way to resist oppression and deception.
Sure but it’s only reality because everyone’s too pussy to take responsibility
It’s always easy for somebody with no skin in the game to demand another person risk everything they have.
Somebody have blown a village in iraq like a good doggie. People like you discuss me.
“No skin in the game”, go tell that to the people under the bombs, asshole
No I take my existence seriously and take responsibility. Just because a person is not capable of holding responsibility doesn’t mean they’re entitled to the position - can’t do it? Then fucking do something else.
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When was the last time an American was held responsible for a war crime?
In my lifetime, we’ve been doing them since Bush Jr was in office, and I’ve never heard of a single one.
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If your choice is between murdering countless innocents or being executed I expect you to die, and we’re not even to the point yet that the consequences would be that severe. The “home of the brave” seems to be awfully tolerant of cowardice in its military as of late.
You know, funny, we didn’t sign up for fighting bullshit wars while claiming we’d die for our country while also claiming we won’t protect the country from fascism because we are shaking in our boots over being court martialed. You see death is worse so us expecting those fucking assholes to do what they fucking bullied us all into pretending they already do is the fucking bare minimum we should be demanding.
Or maybe I should say it’s fucking easy to go take the American tax payers dollars for your socialist free college and your socialist free healthcare while being a fucking pussy that won’t stand the fuck up to fascism when it tugs on your balls.
There is no brain under the helmet.
Officers now have to decide whether or not to commit war crimes? Wow, that is a dilemma, I wouldn’t want to be forced to make that decision. This article does a really good job humanizing their struggle, you can’t help but feel bad for them.
