How many renouncing their citenship for bad?
Daaaaaad!
Wait but if they leave, who will vote him out :(
No one, its called braindrain. Your country fucks up hard enough that the people with the education and means to do so fuck off. We made our bed, time to hunker down and deal with the consequences.
I left back in 2015 after realizing that, had I stayed in the US, I probably would have killed myself. I haven’t renounced so that I can help my parents (and, yes, I keep voting), but the punishing tax and retirement investing issues make things a huge pain. So much paperwork everywhere, can’t invest in things, potential double-taxation, hours of forms to fill out for a country I’ve spent ~15 days in in the last decade, etc.
I’ve thought about it. And it’s not just Trump. I see Trump more as a symptom of the problem, not the problem himself.
The thing is, my values just don’t align with many, if not most other Americans. A lot of Americans are fairly money obsessed. Many Americans are greedy and selfish. There seems to be a culture of getting rich anyway you can, even if it is through unethical means.
I also think many Americans are hyper consumers. The idea seems to be to work and hustle and grind intensely, to make as much money as possible so that you can spend that money conspicuously. Work hard, spend hard, party hard. Indulge, indulge, indulge. Money and indulgence and consumption supersedes relationships and any kind of social connection.
And somehow, for some this money obsessed consumerism runs concurrently with a bizarre form of Christianity, even though those two things seem to be at odds with one another. Don’t get me wrong, the greed and the consumerism are by no means restricted only to Christian Americans. There are plenty of secular or atheist Americans who are plenty greedy, too. It just seems to be in the DNA of the nation. Everything’s money and money is everything.
Americans will say, “there’s nothing wrong with working hard to support your family,” but it’s not just supporting your family, it’s about making enough money to buy a massive house and fill it with stuff, and fill your extra large garage with big, expensive cars and trucks, and all sorts of “toys,” like boats and jet skis and four wheelers, and campers/RVs. And no matter how much stuff you have, it’s never enough. You always need more, or better stuff. That goes way, way beyond just “supporting your family.”
Frankly, I’m exhausted by it. I tried living that way for a lot of years but I don’t have the energy anymore.
I mean, I don’t really care if someone works honestly and gets more. Want to do OT and buy a jet ski? Fine, whatever. Not my preferred avenue but you do you.
What stands out more is the lack of morality. Basically no one seems to care about morals so long as they get theirs. Witness that it took something as simple and stupid as gas prices. That’s far more concerning to me from a societal standpoint. We basically have no society because no one cares for anyone past their own nose. That’s a huge problem.
I mean, I don’t really care if someone works honestly and gets more. Want to do OT and buy a jet ski? Fine, whatever. Not my preferred avenue but you do you.
Yeah, but that’s the thing: when the priority is get rich so you can buy lots of shit, morality becomes a secondary consideration, if it’s a consideration at all. Morality, empathy and ethics should be the standard, with exceptional wealth and consumption being the exception, rather than exorbitant wealth and consumption being the goal and morality and empathy being fringe concepts.
It’s not just that some people work a few extra hours to earn a jet ski, it’s that our culture conditions us to believe that the money and the things are what people should be primarily striving for, and that everything else is unimportant.
I get people wanting to bust their humps and do a bunch of work towards a goal. You want to spend a month just screwing around with your new jetski in the summer and doing OT every week for several months or working a second job for that time will let you do it, I get it. The thing that puts me off is the number of people who see just work and accumulation of stuff as the end goal unto itself. They’ll brag about never calling out sick or missing a single day of work, not taking their vacations (or going, but still living in their work inboxes, sending out so many emails they may as well not have gone on one), and saying stuff like “Oh, I could never retire, I wouldn’t know what to do with my time, there’s nothing to do.” And then these people are held up as models that we should aspire to.
I don’t care if a job pays me so much that I could afford a dream vacation, jetskis and all the new gadgets every year if I have to be working so much I never even get to do/use any of those things the salary makes possible. I’d much rather take a job with a salary that lets me do fewer of those things, or even having to skip years between one and the next, but lets me clock out and have enough time to myself to take care of myself and pursue hobbies and interests outside of work on a regular basis.
I agree with you for the most part.
The thing that bugs me is myself and family not being that way here, but the system that permeates every single interaction starts to clench on you. You’ll be content, but the water keeps rising and trying to take more and more from you.
The costs keep rising, the packages keep shrinking, the wages are always stagnate so you’re supposed to hustle harder, work longer, get another job or clown around for attention or ‘sell feet pics bb’ or whatever other ridiculous hustle just to maintain a basic standard.
For people who see the consumerist rat race for the scam it is, we’re passively and actively punished at every turn.
That’s the part I’m sick of. I just wanna live simply, splurge on hardware every few years, and make videogames.
I struggle to imagine it being different elsewhere. It’d be cool to be smart / valuable enough to be a desirable immigrant to a civilized country. Lol
Hate to break it to you but America is not the only country like that. Shit id argue American isn’t even in the top 5 for hyper consumerism and classism. I live outside the country and it sucks everywhere
That is unfortunate. I guess there’s no place for people like me.
It might be naive of me but I think there is. It’s a lot of work but we can develop self -sustaining communities that support each other. That support can look a variety of ways too, from shopping at each others small businesses to sharing crops from gardens and farms.
There is definitely no magic country though. I just returned to my home country after jumping from job to job in Europe trying to find a place for me and my family that wasn’t awful. Unfortunately, being an immigrant is hard no matter where you go and people will take advantage of your vulnerability.
Exactly, there really are not that many places where this isn’t the case. You have to make the choices yourself to consume less and be more social with others. It doesn’t mean you have to abandon your own country to do that.
Well fucking said. No notes
I left with my toddler, dog, and non-US-citizen wife in February this year. It took 10 months of planning + prep work, and cost us a great deal financially. Went from a household income of $160k to $40k. And every day I see another headline I’m reassured that we made the right decision.
We don’t have to pay US taxes since we make less than $120k, but we still have to file US taxes. I’ll retain my citizenship for voting rights (they’ll come for them soon enough though).
Pro-tip: Depending on the country you moved to and if your child has U.S. citizenship, you can file for a Child Tax Credit and get up to $2200 per child per year.
Wish I had the money and transferrable skills to get the fuck out of here.
Speaking English is a skill in many countries
Just “speaking English” typically won’t get you a job unless you have a degree to back it up.
Not true, in China they take anyone from America to teach English
It’s enough to get you in the door in some countries if you’re willing to teach English. But it won’t get you permanent residence without a lot more work.
Also most countries where that’s possible (East Asia) aren’t much of an improvement over the US if you’re running from rampant capitalism and social conservatism.
That doesn’t mean you get accepted in a country just cause you can speak it.
No, I mean in a country where English is not spoken English teachers are sometimes needed
This month my wife and I will be celebrating two years in Germany. Germany is not perfect and immigrating to another country is rough but we are much happier, healthier, and secure here. We never want to go back to the US. We are working on permanent residence (visa) and then citizenship.
Hey that’s me! Well I’ve left at least, need to get citizenship elsewhere before I renounce, but that’s the path I’m on. Idgaf about dual citizenship or having a US passport in the future fuck all that I never want anything to do with the US again
Oddly enough, the US is almost the only country in the world that allows you to renounce without having another citizenship.I wouldn’t recommend it, bit technically you don’t need another citizenship first.
(Seriously, don’t do this.)
Renouncing? Won’t that make it harder for the others to vote better leaders into office?
Isn’t this what Trump wants?
The US is one of only two countries in the world to tax the foreign earnings of its expats (the other is Eritrea). They’re so annoying about it on the finance side that many foreign banks refuse to give accounts to US expats. Renunciation is the only way to avoid that mess.
The US also takes a big exit tax on the wealth of anyone renouncing.
Yep. Retirement investing is also a huge pain. Many things are PFICs which can take hours of work each to figure out how to fill in US forms for (and a punitive tax for your efforts), not all accounts are treated as tax-advantaged in both US and target country, etc. I will be renouncing when my parents pass (or I can convince them to GTFO, but that seems unlikely).
Yep. You’re fleeced until your last American breath and the IRS will freeze your passport if you dont hand over your money. It’s kidnap and ransom for not making extortion payments.
But the IRS is like “Sorry. Hands tied :(” going after all those Swiss bank accounts and offshore shells within shells where 0% goes to taxes.
What if I renounce after leaving and taking all my money with me first? How going tax me then?
It used to be that you have to pay a big fat one-time fee to renounce, as kind of a substitute for all of your future tax payments.
I think they changed the rules on that recently, though.
Edit: since GP made the same point about the exit tax, if you purport to renounce without paying the fee, then you haven’t really renounced. You and your assets can be seized for tax evasion (assuming you stop filing tax returns) if they ever touch US jurisdiction again, or any country that has a tax treaty with US, or countries with extradition to US.
I can’t help but sympathize with people who think “fuck it, gonna focus on my own happiness.” Life is short, and normal people’s ability to have a say has been sabotaged.
That and when your compatriots can’t do the simplest of asks why would you blame them.
I think that’s kind of what got us into this mess in the first place.
I don’t sympathize for this reason, but I do understand.
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You think? I’ve never made more than 50k a year even when married and we both worked full time. My sis, not to hold grudges or shit, works 20hrs and wakes up at noon and gets paid 100k a year. All because of luck and good timing. I literally can’t afford food, rent, heathcare, not to mention my cat with all the bullshit going on.
The sad thing is I had a American dream that one day I wouldn’t be suffering as a wage slave forever.
“Look at those lousy traitors! They never really loved America anyway.”
That’s how MAGats will play it off.
Honestly, I’m not sure I’m going to correct them.
It is, but you can’t blame the scared people running out of the burning building for not saving the children still trapped inside.
Especially not when it’s so clear there are others trying to save them.
When you see yourself as a victim, you become one.
Well, it’s not just that the building is burning. It’s also that about a third of the building residents have joined an absolutely insane cult, and really enjoy the smell of gasoline, and so have left open containers of gasoline around their apartments.
Seriously: as the first guy said, what’s happening now is a symptom of a deeply embedded, long-running progression of societal metastacization that is impossible to ignore at this point.
Yeah I love in maga central. It’s the people who are the problem. I can almost always identify the magats just based on their shitty behavior. Not all people are like that around here but the magats make themselves obvious, and they’re unavoidable.
I will stay to watch the meltdown as long as I live, I feel that it’s kinda bullshit to flee, but I get it.
If I had a family I would at least be planning to leave, but I want to be here until the end if possible. Blood for the blood god.
The American Dream was a bum deal and no more live shooter drills for my kids. Fuck it I’m out.
I still vote though. Good luck my friends. ❤️
I understand the logic, but realistically, depriving a country of your productivity and taxes has a much larger impact than staying to do an occasional protest. In the same way that companies don’t care about social media posts saying the company is stupid, but they do care if the revenue drops because people actually stop using the company. So while it may feel like fleeing, it’s also the biggest impact they can have, though it’s a massive sacrifice to leave one’s life behind, so it shouldn’t be expected or demanded of everyone.
Yeah, I’m sure when Trump invades the next country, he’s really going to lament the lost labor of his biggest potential opponents.
Same, I am living on hella lot of spite and still want to be here for my parents and friends. I don’t like the idea of being a pussy coward and fleeing my homeland because some assholes made it worse.
Skulls for the skull throne!
Are the 1% fleeing the ship they sunk?
I’ve decided that if they come after my naturalization they’d be doing me a favor. I already left. The taxes make it tempting.
I’m just gonna kill myself
It’d be less costly, emotionally and financially, for you, your loved ones, and your next of kin if applicable if you were to move to another country. Hell, vacation there just to get a change of scenery or a taste of the life you want. Don’t throw your life away just because things are bad now.
Gee… I wonder what ever could be the reason
well ice is also scooping up a buncha citizens
