- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
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I totally agree. I used to hate systemd for breaking the traditional Unix philosophy, but the reality is that a tight init and service-tracking integration tool really was required. I work with and appreciate systemd every day now. It certainly didn’t make things simplier and easier to debug, but it goes a long way towards making a Linux system predictable and consistent.
Poettering can go fuck himself though - and for PulseAudio too. I suspect half of the hate systemd attracted over the years was really because of this idiot.
Is it really breaking it? As far as I’m aware, it’s more like gnu. It has components and you can select what you use (here meaning distros and packagers).
People mistake this for a monolith because it’s all named systemd-thing. Integration, like you said, was and is needed. But what if all those separate utilities and services are actually disconnected and speak some protocol different to pipe? Does it make it less unixy?
And poettering is an absolute good guy here. Pulseaudio wasn’t perfect, but did it improve things compared to what was there before? Sure it did. Even now, pulesaudio protocol is used within pipewire and it works just fine.
Perfect is the enemy of good. And while all these tools might not be perfect, they are the best in the Linux world.
poettering is an absolute good guy here
Agreed. But he’s also an abrasive know-it-all. A modicum of social skills and respect goes a long way towards making others accept your pet projects.
pulesaudio protocol is used within pipewire and it works just fine.
I wasn’t talking about the protocol, I was talking about the implementation: PulseAudio is a crashy, unstable POS. I can’t count the number of hours this turd made me waste, until PipeWire came along.
I always assumed that Poettering is an arse to people because of the hate he got for systemd. I imagine it’s hard to see the best in people when there’s a crowd of haters everywhere you go. Though I have no idea what he was like beforehand.
People are idiots.
Poettering got death threats for systemd.
Everybody who is hated and popular gets death threats. Hell, even the nicest actors get death threats.
They are easy to write and send, and there’s 0.01% of the population that is mentally unstable enough to actually do so. You and I don’t get death threats because we aren’t popular enough.
Pulseaudio was introduced in 2004. How come it took almost 20y for it to be replaced if it was that bad?
Implementation, being what it is, improved the situation compared to alsa and other things before it. Again, while not perfect it made things better for everyone.
It’s funny that this is a thing attributed to poettering as bad since things before were way worse… why not throw Sticks and stones at those people?
I really don’t get it.
And all of these things are optional. The fact that distro people and companies select them is because they solve real world problems.
Pulseaudio was introduced in 2004. How come it took almost 20y for it to be replaced if it was that bad?
Did you learn nothing from X11 usage? May I remind you that X11 was invented by Xerox in the fucking 80s?!
Bad software attaches itself to OSs like a cancer.
“It’s more like gnu”
You are correct. GNU has the bad habit of only working with itself as well. Systemd only works with Glibc so it fits in well.
The reality is that GNU is just a subset of the Red Hat Linux platform these days. Systemd is another part. GNOME is the other big chunk. They are all designed to work with each other and do not care if they work with anything else.
systemd is easy to work with, other init systems introduce kinks, I rather break philosophy than deal with that shit
Linux audio has been a cluster^$%< of epic proportions since the mid 1990s. At least you can make single application systems work well these days, but Windows has really whipped the llamas ass on the audio front for 30+ years now, in terms of “it just works” user experience - without being hyper-draconian on the application ecosystem.
Unrelated but how do people feel about the ai images when used for something like this.
The font is very telling for being DallE
People would be less mad if you straight up used a stock image with a watermark so I don’t understand why people go out of their way to use AI when they know people will comment on it and it will detract from the point of the article.
Also, using AI in the thumbnail makes people automatically assume you’re using AI in the text as well. And if you’re not doing that, why would you lessen the perceived value of your writing by making it seem like you are?
It just seems pointless and actively harms your actual goals because people will get hung up on the fact that you used AI and ignore your actual valid points. Especially when you’re writing about open source projects when most people interested in open source are vehemently anti-AI, it really just shows you don’t know your target audience.
While I mostly agree with you (and 100% on it distracting from the article), I think you’re not thinking about image rights.
If you’re a serious blogger with a good sized blog, a lawsuit or DMCA or otherwise is potentially a killer outcome of using an image you don’t 100% sure have the rights to. With AI, you can be 100% sure you can use the image however you want, without any repercussions. I’d imagine that’s huge in the considerations for a blogger.
Unsplash, Freepik, Pexels, and countless other sites exist where you can get free images with clear licensing.
I think it strongly detracts from the post. I basically skipped right to the comments without clicking the link because I’m assuming it’s AI slop, and I’m hoping the comments are interesting.
AI should be able to do a really good systemd debate by now, the available training material is immensely huge.
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/systemd/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus systemd Linux.
I’d say the main bad part of systemd is how it’s used and now expected everywhere.
If you search for some Linux guides or install something complicated or whatnot, they always expect you to have systemd. Otherwise, you’re on your own figuring how things work on your system.
This shouldn’t really happen. Otherwise, yes, it’s great, it integrates neatly, and is least pain to use.
In my opnion, systemd is like core-utils at this point.
It’s so integrated into most things and the default so many places, that most guides assume you have it.
I suggest Gentoo.
Great documentation, systemd optional.
Lol, this is borderline evil advice
But yeah, it works!
Gentoo is an easy OS, and works like a charm.
Alright you broke the edge of evil into a very different realm
I have struggled with Fedora for couple of years (graphics drivers after major updates), then Ubuntu got me down a couple of times (snaps and other malice).
Zero issues with Gentoo after the initial setup. You build it, update it, and IT WORKS. Also you can easily remove parts of software you’re building with USE flags. -telemetry, -x11, and you never care about it anymore.
I must assume Gentoo does require manual intervention here and there, and updates must take eternity for packages that are not precompiled, ain’t it so?
I have an 8 core CPU, but I have to admit I don’t use any DE.
Updates can take several hours if I don’t upgrade for a while, but PC is usable during them (you can set number of build threads).
Manual intervention is what I’ve said needed way more in Fedora, which left me without any video after updates, or Ubuntu which broke integrations or replaced my software.
Gentoo just… is.
There are sometimes updates that would require intervention if you do something special, nothing too difficult though, and you get a link to Wiki with working solutions.
I need to donate more money to that project.
There is no authority delegating responsibilities of writing tutorials for Linux. It is the responsibility of nobody and everybody. If you can’t find one for your problem, write it yourself when you have figured it out.
Sure, but I can’t single-handedly create an entire knowledge base on doing everything with X, so it’s a real and big limitation.
If you think so and that this is important, maybe you could be the one that makes it happen. Start a project and gather like-minded people. That is how Linux, FOSS and community driven efforts operate. It’s useless to complain that nobody else makes the effort if you have the capabilities but can’t be arsed making an attempt yourself.
I don’t appreciate the attitude and arrogance of the guy behind systemd because he actually believes what he produces can replace everything that already “just works”. He wants to push out systemd-homed because “why not”. He wants to replace grub. He wants to replace a myriad of things that just flat out don’t need to get replaced. autofs, cron, you name it! That kind of thinking and one-size-fits-all mentality is backwards and does not benefit the community in any way. All it does is stuff everything into one bin and so long as influencers like this guy continue to restrict what works or doesn’t work according to their own work, the community and its users will not be able to freely develop FOSS. Gnome is a good example of something that creates too much of a dependency on systemd and so when you’re trying to use something like Gentoo, it becomes very difficult to get that done and hacks have to made in order to get it working. FOSS shouldn’t work like that. He’ll keep stripping away legit projects from major distros until IBM/Red Hat finally decide to seal the deal and lock everyone out for good. Sorry if I can’t rejoice in the woah whiplash.
All it does is stuff everything into one bin
Well, it is not one bin. There is no monolithic systemd bin that does everything. There are a lot of separate bin files for all the different tasks. Well and if you don’t want to use timers, then don’t and just use cron instead. If you don’t want to use journald, then just don’t and use rsyslog or whatever you want. Don’t need systemd-homed? Well, then don’t use it. You want to configure your network with something else then systemd-networkd? Great, do it if you want.
The Poettering Army will not come and force you to enable all the options 😜
Except, they are. Pottering is the front man who does the dirty work for IBM and Microsoft to take over Linux by forcing distros to adopt systemd.
Those of us old enough to remember the “vote” that resulted in Debian going to Systemd remember it was almost at gunpoint.
Death to systemd, long live FOSS culture
deleted by creator
The is the first time I’ve ever heard someone accusing grub of „just working“
Grub is working perfectly fine.
If it breaks it is, in my experience as a grub user for over 20 years and as a guy working in server hosting for 15 years, either because of failing HDD/SSD or because of user error. People don’t read when the updater tells them that running “grub-install” is needed (or they perform it on the wrong drive/partition) and then blame grub when it fails on the next boot.
The crappy bootloader that comes with systemd very often, in my experience, fails to register that a new Kernel was installed and boots the old one (or fails to boot if the package manager removed the old Kernel).
Oh and GRUB has so many useful features, like booting a ISO image. GRUB is a piece of programmer art!
I hated it and still do because for a period of years every weird, difficult to find issue on a bunch of servers was caused by systemd. It may be fine now, but I switched to Devuan and have had incredible stability. Poettering’s response to security issues was also terrible and honestly the dude seems like a real piece of shit.
Systemd on a server is disaster.
Excuse me but wtf? How many machines do you manage?
Right now five servers. Three with Alpine Linux and two FreeBSD servers.
Ok I see. Without any intention to sound offensive, 5 servers is not enough to really see the pro cons of either init system. People handling 50 times those numbers encounter issues where it starts to matter, and those people tend to claim that, while it ain’t perfect, it is a lot better than any alternative
You see, I scaled down a little in recent years because that is not my primary job any more. But, I am working as an admin from 1998. so my word should have some weight, right?
All words from any it admin have weight, that is not what I meant.
Its just that init scripts and weird boot requirements are really crap to manage at scale and my job, like many others became a lot easier with systemd, that is why almost everyone uses it now. In my experience those that complain either never encountered these issues because they never scaled enough and like to use what they were used to, or prefer to write a script over a config file and make this a religious issue for some reason.
I’m in Guix Linux land right now and I miss
journald. I’m supposed to wade through all the log files in/var/logmyself??journalctl is the one part of systemd I really do not like. For whatever reason, it’s insanely slow, taking multiple seconds before it gets around to display anything. It also has all the wrong defaults, displaying error messages from a year ago first, while scrolling to the bottom again also takes forever and consumes 100% CPU while doing so.
There are flags to filter and display only the relevant parts, but not only are none of them intuitive, doing a mistake there just gives you “-- No entries --”, not an error. So you can never quite tell if you typed it wrong or if were are no messages.
Maybe it all makes more sense when studying the man page in depths and learned all the quirks, but /var/log/ kind of just worked and was fast, without any extra learning.
