Comrade_Spood

You’re punishing him solely to potentially prevent others from doing copying him. Which frankly is insane. Cause lets be honest, he was more than likely right, so punishing him isn’t going to make him regret what he did. He would probably do it again under similar circumstances. If his work is undone by the city, then not only will it make his sacrificd meaningless, it will also likely make him and others want to escalate. If his actions do work, whether or not he is punished, it serves as proof that his strategy works, and if people are desperate enough they will copy him. Then lastly the people who want to fuck with traffic stuff just for the fun of it are not going to be the kinds of people deterred by the possibility of getting arrested.

Punishing him not only won’t stop shit, it further proves him right. Making an example of him is punishing a man for doing the right thing when the city wouldn’t and is unproductive and wrong. The city shoulda just put the stop sign in and none of this would have been an issue.

I agree with you largely. Although I don’t think people downvote for the cognitive dissonance, at least thats not the reason I do. I live in a very rural state, and even the most industrialized cities here have dog shit public transportation and are not bike-able or walkable. I also do not want to live in a city, so I really have no options but to have a car. Personally, when I hear people say “get rid of cars” it feels very privileged because it comes off as a very blanket solution that is really only achievable in cities and other urbanized environments. Otherwise I do largely agree with boosting public transportation and other non-car centric solutions, and obviously I definitely agree with completely replacing the justice system around one of rehabilitation and addressing problems that cause crime in the first place.

Coulda woulda shoulda whatever, thats not reality. People break rules and punishments aren’t effective at stopping them. So come up with an effective way of stopping it without ruining people’s lives or shut the fuck up. No one deserves their life ruined over speeding, and if you think they do then I hope you get to experience the other end of the stick.

Also L+ratio

And if you were smart enough to use critical thinking and follow your logic to its inevitable conclusion, you’d see how that would just send people into cycles perpetually keeping them in prison and never being able to reform or reintigrate into society all over a speeding ticket. But since you aren’t, let me walk you through it.

John gets a in trouble for speeding. Maybe they give him a ticket he cant afford or maybe they just take his car away. Either way it doesnt matter, it just speeds up the cycle so lets go fast and say he loses the car. He now lacks a car so I hope his town has good public transportation! Oops it doesn’t, guess he loses his job because he cant get there on time. Now John is houseless. We all know how the houseless are treated so lets just skip to John going to prison. Lets say a year or so later he gets out. Now he will have an even harder time finding a job because he has a criminal record AND is houseless. On and on.

Now since we both understand the cycle I imagine you still think his car should be taken away but simply because youre a hateful and vengeful person who doesnt care about actually stopping crime, but just want to see people who do something wrong get punished (whether or not the punishment will have unintended consequences that cause the punishment to be way more severe than the crime).

Good thing I use Startpage

Yes we have a common enemy, and I never said we shouldn’t work together to fight it. But that cooperation to me is coming with a ten foot pole cause I know that as soon as it stops being advantageous I’ll be stepped on

I do not agree those demands would have been suicide, and I ain’t claiming Stepan is a perfect individual. I definitely think he made stupid decisions. But it is incorrect that he officially joined the white army. He tried to, but was denied because of his former Bolshevik affiliation. Plus he ended up coming back to the soviet union and joined the Red Army Intelligence Agency, which is something else I criticize him for along side trying to join the White Army. I do not hold any anarchist on a pedestal just because they are anarchist. Proudhon was a piece of shit, and Bakunin was an antisemite. They are flawed people and exactly why I am an anarchist. Because anarchism does not rely on people being perfect as it doesnt allow anyone to hold power over anyone else.

Lastly, soviets ruled by only bolsheviks is not a soviet, thats a one party system and yes does not properly represent the workers like the Kronstadt stated.

In any event I wish to move on. I will say this was a more pleasant debate than I usually have with marxists, so thank you for that. Ciao comrade, I will be expecting your boot when the day comes lol

Anarchists see the state as another system of class. A socialist state does not create a classless society, it changes the class dynamic from capitalists and workers to bureaucrats and workers. The workers themselves do not own the means of production and have to answer to the politicians and bureaucrats that manage the means of production.

And if that is your perspective then I do not see how anarchists and marxists could ever cooperate, as you said our goals are not aligned. Which is to say I do not see how you could be surprised by anarchists not trusting marxists. Doesnt sound like we have enough in common from your perspective to work together without one of us betraying the other.

Also no the Kronstadt Rebellion was an anarchist revolt, freedom of the press and speech for socialists including anarchists was one of the demands of the rebellion and so was bringing back the workers soviets that Lenin got rid of, among other things that, to me, are just asking for a more democratic and free system that doesnt centralize all the power to one party. The link I attached is the demands of the rebellion and it has nothing like you speak of.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1921-2/kronstadt-uprising/kronstadt-uprising-texts/demands-of-the-kronstadt-insurgents/

I aint saying anarchists dont have agency, but its because Marxists insist on it being their way or the highway and use positions of power to disenfranchize anarchists. Anarchists obviously do not like this and resist. That is not the anarchists fault. It wasnt the CNT-FAI’s fault for not wanting to disband their militias and integrate them into the Spanish Republican military structure, and it wasn’t the Kronstadt Rebellion’s fault for wanting the worker’s soviets and freedom of speech to be brough back after Lenin centralized control to the Bolshevik party. And it certainly wasn’t the Ukrainian Black Army’s fault when Trotsky decided they had no use for them anymore and turned the rifle on them. Anarchists and marxists have and still do work together, the issue is the relationship is not built on mutual respect and cooperation. Marxists seem to see anarchists as a tool, that when its use is no longer needed, is expected to go back to the drawer and sit quietly while the marxists take over.

I definitely could see a situation where marxists and anarchists could cooperate on a mutual and equal level. I just do not expect it to happen.

Personally I would want protections for anarchists to freely establish anarchist organized communes and other organizations like workplaces that are independent and autonomous from the marxist state. The two would still share resources and have open borders, but the two would be free to manage their own internal affairs. To me this meets anarchist principles of free association, and still allows for a marxist state to exist. Plus I feel it would meet the marxist’s principle of a transitionary state. The marxist state pops up, and the state would wither away to a stateless, classless, and moneyless society as people transition to the autonomous anarchist communes.

Do I think this would work? Possibly. Do I think an agreement like that would ever be made? No, not likely. The anarchists would still have the threat of being betrayed, and maybe even possibly the anarchists try to betray the marxist state. It would be an uneasy dynamic. And historically, marxists have shown they don’t want to make room for anarchists. But unless some sort of guarantee and protections were to be placed for anarchists in some way, I don’t see anarchists and marxists to ever get along.

Hey I don’t trust yall, but I still give yall the opportunity to prove me wrong (and so far I have been proven wrong by some individuals, so its not impossible). Same as I do with a liberal. I’m just prepared to get backstabbed.

Unfortunately the difference between anarchists and Marxists (pro-state or anti-state) seems to be a disagreement that ends in anarchists getting betrayed, disenfranchized, and shot. So I gotta stay diligent cause I’d rather learn from history rather than repeat it.

We aren’t saying there aren’t different kinds of liberals, what we are trying to tell you is that liberalism is not a left wing ideology anymore. It is centrist and anti-communist. Yes you have left leaning liberals and right leaning. But that still only makes yall center-left and center-right.

Leftists issues with liberals is because liberals, no matter what are pro-capitalist and anti-communist. Communists are anti-property and liberals are pro-property. Yes a leftist has more in common with a left leaning liberal than they do a right leaning liberal, but that does not make their interests aligned. Historically anytime liberals and communists team up, communists get backstabbed. And more often than not, it never even gets to teaming up. Historically, liberals are the ones to team up with authoritarians to crush communists.

And I’m an anarchist. I trust Marxist communists just about as much as I do liberals. That is to say not much. And I have more interests aligned with a Marxist than I do a liberal

Dude do you even know what liberal means?

Liberalism is an ideology founded in a few core principles. Capitalism and the right to own property, the power of the government originating from the masses rather than god, and inalienable rights for its citizens.

You guys are the ones redefining old words cause you don’t like the idea of not being considered leftist anymore. The overton window has shifted since the 1700s, yall are centrists now.

Nah, if my support of them results in that money going to fascists, I don’t care how much good they do. I am not going to support them. Expecting the people you work with and support to uphold certain basic values is not a huge expectation. The people they are supporting actively advocate and support racist and fascistic conspiracies. It is not that much to ask that Framework avoid them and support other open source developers. Its insane to not even have that level of standards. There are loads of open source developers, and people are just asking them to avoid the ones openly being racist.

If you don’t think boycotting them till they renounce that support is reasonable, then I don’t think we have any common ground to work with.

If Framework would drop support, I’ll gladly get onw of their computers and support them. Till then, I ain’t touching them and will stick with my current computer

Damn, I didn’t even know about Framework. Wish they weren’t supportin fascists, cause I’d totally get a laptop from them.